There has been speculation and whispers in various frisbee circles about the format of BUML for 2011. The major change to which I would like to discuss is the combining of all three divisions in one timeslot. I would like to share my opinion on this matter and then open the floor to anyone else wishing to constructively talk about this.
Obviously there are pro's and cons to any league format, but I think this would be a bad move for BUML and would be of detriment to the Heroes club plans. Recently, the Heroes Div 2 teams have been gradually progressing through the ranks, climaxing this week in Discheads' triumph in winning the Div 2 final. This season we also entered a Div 1 team which had a season of learning what it takes to play top division mixed ultimate.
As we have previously discussed, Heroes plans to be at Mixed Nationals next year, which will mean training as a team, and taking advantage of every opportunity to play together at a high level before them. One of the ways which we planned to do this was to enter our nationals team in the Div 1 competition and play together every week. However, if everything went to one timeslot, people would have to leave behind their Div 2 teams (which are just starting to become more enjoyable) to play in a new team starting from scratch.
I don't know about you, but to me that sounds terrible. Another con for this merge is the fact that elite players who currently help out new teams (which is incredibly valuable as it gives new players a chance to see what to aspire towards) would have to choose to either charitably help out new teams, or play the top level mixed competition to challenge themselves and play at their potential. Creating this divide lowers the standard of both divisions.
These are my thoughts. Would love to hear the counter arguments.
panties
Totally agree Jamie.
ReplyDeleteSome thoughts. We currently have Wednesday night pickup at Oakman park, why can't we turn this into another league night, so possibly d1 or d2 games are played on a Wednesday evening rather than Monday.
There are some who currently play in both BUML leagues and the UQ league (like your ChrisB's, tomsteve's and Gref's of the world) which also runs on the Wednesday evening. But if QUDA already has the ground access why couldn't we do this? I would much rather put out a few peoples playing schedules over limiting the star players coming down to d2 to help out cause they want to play d1 as well. That's the reason I took ultimate more seriously and so I think (as Jamie pointed out) to move the BUML league into a one time slot format would hurt Brisbane ultimate more than aid it.
my 2c
Nice post James. This issue was debated prior to the BUML season just finished and the reasons you put forward won out in the end, resulting in maintaining 2 divisions.
ReplyDeleteI think we need to wait and see what the reasons put forward by the LD (+ helpers) are for any proposed changes. If it is just for the sake of simplifying things and reducing the organisational burden, then perhaps separate management will be the way to go (ie: a separate LD for Div 1).
In the end, it will probably come down to people power - after all, the league is run for the players, not for the organisers. If there is sufficient demand for separate divisions and we have enough field space/time for both, then there is no reason why we should not continue as is. However, I suspect that demand for Div 1 may drop somewhat for the first season next year as a lot of current Div 1 players who do not want to play frisbee every night of the week may opt out of Mondays in preference for Nationals training. We will have to wait and see.
I am keen to keep div 1 and 2 on the same night, in separate time slots. Having one on Wednesday would mean an extra night of Frisbee, which wouldn't go down too well with the girlfriend. It would be great if we had the fields until 10 so we could have decent length games.
ReplyDeletebut then we run into the problem of neighbors and shinning light into their houses etc. Here's an idea, convince her to play as well :P *joker tone*
ReplyDeleteIf the problem is organisational burden, perhaps people who feel strongly about this issue should consider volunteering to help out with the organisation. No matter what the organisers do, some people won't be happy about it and will complain. These people volunteer their time and energy trying to please everyone and all they hear is complaining.
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard these whispers until now, but to play devil's advocate, having one long time slot would be hugely beneficial if it could give Heroes a regular opportunity to play full length games. I've seen a lot of brilliant European teams flounder and die in worlds level competition because in Europe you almost never play full length games, so they come out blazing in the first half but completely choke in the second half. I would also argue that playing Div 2 can be seriously detrimental to players who want to improve their competitive level, as it reinforcees a habit of sloppy unfocussed play.
Hi Gang,
ReplyDeleteI'm one of the folks advocating a single time slot.
We've had two time slots and two divisions now for two years. It was brought in as a measure to help Division 1 get established.
My main argument for going back to one timeslot is to increase the warm up and playing time for most players. A secondary outcome is to strengthen the overall skill and competitiveness of the League.
As someone who plays with people who can only play one division, its rough to accept:
a) the briefest possible warm up - lights on at 6.30, game on at 6.45 - and of course its very challenging for many people to get there before 6.30 due to work/family/transport commintments.
b) then get a short game (70min).
This is solely so that less numbers of other people, most of whom play at least one other night of frisbee (and who are going to be the loudest voices in this discussion too) get to play two games and 140 minutes a night as well as 30-40 other minutes of light.
The lights on and off time are largely dictated to us by field providers, but I'd rather see (and I think most Div 2 players would also) have soemthing like lights on at 6.30, game at 7.10, game finish at 8.40 (90 minute game) and lights off at 9pm.
Having a decent warm up and game time would greatly improve the skills and enjoyment of the 'bottom 2/3' of the Monday night players.
In going to one time slot, I am also advocating going to shorter seasons (from 2 seasons to say 3 or 4). Although its more admin, shorter seasons makes for more entry points for newer players and teams. On the competitiveness side though, it means that teams can routinely be promoted/relegated between divisions, which I think would add a lot of fun and challenge to the competitiveness of the League.
Thanks for getting this started Jamie..
ReplyDeleteJDR I agree with everything you've said about a higher quality and length of game, and the frustration of a rushed game when you only play in Div 2. I just struggle with the idea of losing the Division that emphasis's new players getting better at a recreational level through playing with a wide variety of experienced players. We'd be sacrificing higher quality teams at a lower level for longer games/warmup, in the hope that new players will learn more/better?
I'm proud that Brisbane can field 13 teams at a recreational level - I think it creates a massive funnel for introducing the game to the wider community, and experienced players are a big part of that funnel being successful.
Steph, totally agree with your comments on people stepping forward if the admin is too much for two leagues/timeslots.
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I don't think we're talking about losing a division or an opportunity for people to play at a level they want (higher or not).
ReplyDeleteThe idea is one time slot, and 2-3 divisions. Individuals pick the team and division that suits them. Some folks go for the division they want to be in, some pick the team they want to be with.
As TEAMS improve, they can gain promotion, or people can switch teams between seasons.
My impression is that there are about 16 teams worth of people playing Monday night at the moment, and it isn't unreasonable to assume that growth would lead us to 1-2 more teams. Separating into two divisions of eight or nine or three divisions of five or six is doable.
Another way to look at it. At the moment, Div 1 and Div 2 are actually separate Leagues that happen to be on the same night and using the same field, and demands of a few people who want to play in two divisions are limiting the play of anyone who wants to play in one division.
The idea is one time slot, and 2-3 divisions. Individuals pick the team and division that suits them. Some folks go for the division they want to be in, some pick the team they want to be with.
ReplyDeleteThere are many HUC players who intend on playing Div 1 next season. If we took the best players from Heroes, Discheads and Agent Orange we would have a decent Div 1 team (in theory). I guess we could even chuck in a couple of dyspnoeics too.
If on the other hand we entered the current Div 2 Heroes, DiscHeads or Agent Orange we would ge absolutely rolled every single week, oh wait, that already happened this season.
So if we went for the stacked team, that would leave us with 1 or 2 rather weak teams in Div 2. The quality of Div 2 would decrease even further as this would also happen with teams outside of the Heroes Club.
Thanks for the input people.
ReplyDeleteSteph's point is a good one - playing longer games takes some getting use to. Does the League have to be the place where this is done? Maybe a BUML tournament / series of exhibition matches on a Saturday once a season could provide this.
JdR's points are good too, and I see the logic there. I suppose coming from Heroes, I train on a Sunday afternoon so a team warmup isn't AS valuable to me as it might be to players who only see their team mates for that 70 mins on a Monday night.
Michael's comments summarize my concerns well(obviously heavily Heroes biased). This merge would be detrimental (and perhaps psychologically defeating in some way, as div 2 teams would be left floundering and back at square 1 if their best players joined the div 1 team) to our layout, teams and goals.
The idea of having ANOTHER night of frisbee does sound lovely, but perhaps harmful to any attempt at having a balanced life.
Way to keep the comments constructive.
Stephanie,
ReplyDeleteI love you idea of more people volunteering to run the league. In my dream world BUML would be run by a board of 7 (or at least 5) people who all loook after different tasks under the LD's organization.
With respect to potentially moving to one time slot and longer games: We just want to do what the majority of players want. But unfortunately it is often hard to get a good gage of that because it is the same vocal minority that express their opinions on every topic. But our goal is to find out what the majority of the members want to do and then impliment that (whether that is the status quo or the change that JDR discussed above).
Fox
JDR, my comment wasn't meant to imply that we would be losing a Division. Simply that we would be losing a Division (or teams, if you look at it like this) that would contain more experienced players that would mentor new players. Similarly said by others above... competitive players would have to choose between the competitive league vs being a part of a team thats about building new players skills and having fun.
ReplyDeleteAnd just to chuck another funky thought out there - this season we saw the large Div 2 league split into two pools...in the effort to make things more competitive. Did this work? If not, how does this knowledge affect the structure for next season. If it did work, then surely we would try something similar again, not just ignore the success of a change we so recently implemented (although I bitched and moaned about the 2 different pools, I though the last 2 games of Ultimate in the Div 2 Pool 1 Finals we're amongst the most awesome ever, from all teams).
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It seems like Div 2 is currently more prestigious than Div 1. At least, it's larger, teams have played in it longer.. etc etc.
ReplyDeleteI like John's idea (not mentioned here) of having to qualify. Maybe Discheads and Dyspnoeics should have to play Div 1 next season. If Div 1 had 8 teams, it may not be as strong as it is now, or there may be a gap between the top 4 and bottom 4, but in the long run, teams and individuals would get better.
If this happens, I am confident that the Heroes Club could organise it's teams to support itself.
Another factor people have not considered in this discussion is... time. Quite a few of the players on Discheads have mentioned that they would like to try their hand at a higher division but under the current format the games finish at 9:25 and players would get home by about 10 or shortly after. I think for most people it is difficult to do everything that they need to do on a Monday afternoon/evening and fit in 6-10 Frisbee. Game time of 7-8:30 is better in this regard.
ReplyDeleteI assume sebastian is referring to somebody else as he does not appear stretched for time.
ReplyDeleteI also find the timing difficult at the moment. I struggle to get to the field by the start of Div 2, and I get home so late after Div 1. But if I only played one division in the current format I would feel like I wasn't getting enough play to make the trip worthwhile. Plus I would really appreciate the chance to warm up properly rather than tying my laces as the pull is being thrown and we only have 5 players on the line.
ReplyDeleteIn last year's poll I voted for the system we ended up having, as I enjoy playing with two different teams and having a long playing time. But reading these comments I'm starting to think I would prefer one real game. Either way has its pros and cons so I'll just be happy as long as someone tells me when and where to show up.
At the end of the day I will support the format that is most conducive to our nationals campaign. For reasons Seb mentioned, perhaps this is the one timeslot?
ReplyDeleteJDR's idea of having tiers or divisions that you must qualify to be in similar to European Football leagues is one that appeals personally to me. 6 teams in Div 1 and then however many teams in Div 2. With the grand finalists from Div 2 qualifying for Div 1 the following season while the bottom 2 Div 1 teams sliding back. This would help reinforce the already strong club/team culture within BUML and encourage players to stick with their team, as opposed to players jumping from team to team (Tho this seems to happen a lot more at BPL rather than BUML).
ReplyDeleteI also would not be able to do yet another night of frisbee after training/BPL 2 nights a week plus Monday nights. I enjoy frisbee but i also enjoy other sports and i'd have to sacrifice something to do frisbee related stuff 4 nights a week. Plus there is the issue of burnout.
alright, get your votes in.
ReplyDelete